The L. C. Smith Man
Walt Schiessl
2169 W.Victoria Ave.
Anaheim Calif. 92804
714-956-2869
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Questions? Information? Call the L.C. Smith Man |
Anaheim Calif. 92804 714-956-2869 |
Appraisals Estimates |
AD#1 L.C. Smith 0Grade 12 gage
s/n R328500 made 1909
Another of the getting very scarce
seldom seen L.C. Smiths. The 0 grade introduced in 1895 and made thru 1912
sold 29,360 in all gages was priced at $47.00 with stub twist barrels.
This gun also had stub twist barrels but at a latter date was sent back
to the factory and refitted with field grade armor steel barrels for use
with the modern nitro based smokeless powder ammunition. This is a very
scarce 12 inch barrel o grade in high demand competition shooting, waterfowl,
turkeys, hogs and other large bodied game birds. Perfect balance and point
shoot design and made to last and more than likely will last another 98
years plus.
Specifications
Regular frame-32 inch armor steel
barrels-2&3/4 inch chambers-extractors- mirror bores-chokes IM&F-1
brass sight bead-98% blueing 3 position safety-splinter forearm w/ ebony
insert-2 triggers-LOP 14 inches to a butt plate-pistol grip w/ cap-heel
drop 2&3/4 inch-comb drop 1&5-8 inches-figured English walnut-wood,
checkering and finish all original 95%-case colors have been polished out.
This is a very sweet L.C. Smith
Price $1800.00
AD#3 L.C. Smith
Grade 3E s/n RE214878-12Gage Made 1912
A special order beautiful
3E, very scarce and rare. These were the beginning of the elaborate very
fine banknote engraved pre 1913 L.C. Smiths. In character and quality of
the higher grades of the pre 1913 guns but without the higher prices of
the pigeon and 4&5 grades. Optional extra cost automatic ejectors and
single selective triggers were extra on all these grades. By adding these
options to the 3E made this gun almost equal to the higher priced grades.
People recognized this as the numbers documented them. The 3E sold 2,093
Pigeon 894-4E321-5E373 reflecting the high quality and values. Due to neglect
by the original owner’s heirs for over 75 years a full expert restoration
to as new condition was done by master gunsmith Freddy Brunner.
Specifications
30 inch nitro steel barrels-100% blueing-mirror bores-chokes F-F-Automatic ejectors-2&3/4 inch chambers-2 Ivory beads-ebony tipped splinter forearm-automatic safety-100% case colors-100% banknote engravings-hunter single selective trigger-100% checkering- simulated leather decelerator recoil pad-straight grip stock-L.O.P. 14&1/4 inch-special order heel drop 3 inch-comb drop 1&1/4 inch 100% high grade English walnut and high gloss finish.
Price $6,500.00
AD#5 L.C. Smith Field grade 12gage
s/n R352697 Made1916
One if the increasingly hard to
find 32inch choked F-F L.C. Smiths These were extremely popular as a waterfowl
gun in the flyway areas of the country and also was used by many of the
commercial hunters as it performed as well or better than the 10gage which
was being phased out. These were also extremely popular with the skeet,
trap and live bird shooters as the L.C. Smiths were noted for their performance
in patterning and distance. I’ve also seen some of these with
the stub and Damascus barrels available as special ordered as these were
also being phased out.
As such these saw more than the
normal hard use and were being replaced by the featherwt.guns as shooters
tastes changed. Sadly many were neglected and fell into deterioration and
were later scrapped during the scrap drives of WW2.
Specifications
L.C. Smith Field Grade 12gage s/n
R352697 made1916
32inch armor steel barrels-2-3/4inch
chambers-extractors-chokes F_F-mirror bores-98%blueing-1brass bead-automatic
safety-2triggers-splinter type forearm-0case colors-14inch L.O.P.-buttplate-pistol
grip w/cap-heel drop2-7/8inch-comb drop1-3/4inch-wood and finish98%-mid
grade english walnut.
Price $1,500
AD#6 L.C. SMITH Field Grade-12gage-s/n-R39882-Made
1921
A one owner field grade, well taken
care of with lots of T.L.C. The high quality of materials and craftsmanship
are evident in this good old L.C. that saw many years and hunting trips.
This is a standard regular frame gun with extractors,2 triggers and 30inch
barrels mainly used for the heavier bodied game birds such as pheasants,
ducks, geese, turkeys, ect . Also used with slugs and 00 buck for deer,
hogs ect.
Noted for its point shoot design,
perfect balance, patterns and its trouble free sidelock design, rotary
bolt system guaranteed never to shoot loose these field grades outperformed
the guns of the other makers of their higher grades box lock design guns.
There is also another as these are excellent trap and skeet guns as well,
still outperforming the new guns as well. There just is no substitute for
quality or a L.C. Smith shotgun.
Specifications .
L.C. Smith Field Grade 12Gage-s/n-R39882-made
1921 30inch Armor steel brls. mirror bores, extractors, chokes IM-IM, auto
safety, 2&3/4inch chambers,98% blueing, one brass bead, Spl. Forearm,
Double triggers, 14inch L.O.P.-Recoil pad, pistol grip w/ cap ,heel drop2&3
/4inch ,comb drop 1&5/8, some case color, mid grade English walnut,
finish and checker 95%
A Excellent Sweet good old L.C.
Price $1,500
As I have difficulty in keeping my listings current,
frequently some L.C.’s never made the listings as they come and go before
I have a chance to list them. As such you may want to check with me occasionally.
Thank You
Walt
The L.C. Smith Cocking Tools
For Ordering Call (714) 956 2869
The only special too specifically designed for the L. C Smith Shotguns,
it is used to cock and
uncock the hammer and mainsprings when doing side lock
plates assembly and to recock the
cocking rods while disassembled. If the gun bas not been
cocked before disassembly or triggers
pulled wbile cleaning when disassembled, it's almost
impossible to replace the forearm without
Possibly bending or breaking the cocking rods or damaging
the forearm extractor or auto ejector
mechanism Easy recocking with this tool per picture,
new improved version fits all frames and
gages, in polished brass. Save an expensive repair or
a hunting trip.
Price $50.00 includes instructions shipping and handling. Mail to Walt Schiessl, 2169 W. Victoria Ave, Anaheim, CA. 92804
The L.C. Smith Man, Walt Schiessl
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The L.C. Smith’s highly acclaimed for their precision and master gun smithing, The highest of standards in materials Workman ship, patented inventions and designs such as the side lock design, the rotary bolt system, the 1st hammerless Side lock gun, The 1st American Automatic Ejectors, the hunter triggers and much much more, truly original, not copied, earned the L.C. Smith the Reputations as America’s finest made double gun and affectionately named the Good Old Elsie, these L.C. Smith by far surpassed the other American makers and many of so called Europes finest.
The very first were the patented Baker 3 Barrel and double guns by maker L.C. Smith Syracuse N.Y. 1880-1883, the first true L.C. Smiths were the 1st patented side lock hammer guns in 1883 followed by the 1st patented hammerless side lock gun in 1886, a unique feature was the 1883 on hammer guns could be converted to hammerless at a nominal charge, many were. These hammerless guns were made in Syracuse N.Y. until L.C. smith sold the company to John Hunter and Family in 1888. The baker 3 BRL. Guns were in grade quality 1 thru 5 and the double brl. Guns qualities A thru F – both were hammer guns the L.C. smith Syracuse guns were AA-A-B-C-D-E-F Hammer guns. The hammerless qualities 2 thru 7-1886-1888.
A new factory was built in Fulton N.Y. to manufacture the L.C. Smith, hunter arms guns 1888-1890, the 1st hunter arms L.C. Smiths introduced 1890, records prior to 1890 of the L.C. Smith Syracuse guns unfortunately were poorly kept and few have survived the ravages of the time and poor storage, therefore any information is scarce, sketchy and mostly speculative.
The Hunter Arms L.C. Smith Fulton N.Y. guns beginning in 1890 were the numbered grades, introduced over a period of years until 1913; the highest grades were the AI, A2, A3, and the Monogram, these were followed by the numbered grades, the highest were the 5-5E, the 4-4E, Pigeon grade, 3-3E, 2-2E, 1-1E, 0-0E, and 00-00E. The E designates automatic ejectors and was optional at extra costs as were single triggers and other options; standard were double triggers and extractors.
In 1913 the grading system was changed to the word designation, the highest grade was the new deluxe grade; highly inlaid with gold inlays and highly engraved. The grade A3 was renamed the premier grade and the monogram was also carried over to the new post 1913 line the monogram was the only grade without a name change in the company’s history, also the only numbered grade carried over to the post 1913 line the 5-5E renamed the crown grade. The crown was followed by the eagle grade, trap grade, specialty grade, Olympic grade, skeet special grade, ideal grade and field grade, also the hammer guns were also made in the various grades in both the pre 1913 and post 1913 guns until 1932. There were also derivative guns made for the hunter arms in Meriden, these were the Fulton and Fulton special, the hunter special, gladiator series for sears and roebuck and the bolt-action ranger series also for sears. Also the single barrel trap gun 1917 thru 1945 in the various grades and 1946-1950 by the L.C. Smith Gun co.
Today it is acknowledged that the pre 1913 L.C. Smith’s were the absolute finest regardless of the grade, using the highest quality of materials and workmanship and patented innovations, production and material costs were secondary in producing these finest of double guns achieving the reputation as America’s finest double gun.
It was claimed that the grade system change was to reduce the number of grades but records indicate that there were 10 numbered grades pre 1913 but 11 word grades 1913 –1945, comparing the grades there is a noticeable difference with the pre 1913 grades.
The grade changes were purely economic, as the majority of the guns made were the field and ideal grades the change affected mainly the wood types, the cheaper American walnut grades, lower grades checkering and a simplistic leaf type engraving on the ideal grade as well as the same on the specialty engravings and the eagle grade stippling and engravings, all of these changes did not affect the master gunsmith qualities of the L.C. Smith’s and High quality remained in all grades, the highest graded crown, monogram, premier and deluxe were still the finest guns made as these were superb made special order guns.
Financial difficulties finally led to bankruptcy filing in 1917, hunter arms was then purchased by a group of local townspeople for economic stability then sold in 1920 to the Simonds family of Fitchburg Mass. And was run by Mr. S.J. Giles of Simons Saw and Steel who later became the owner and president of hunter arms co. In 1939 due to ill health and financial problems he put the company up for sale but WWII postponed the inevitable but went bankrupt in 1945. The Marlin Co. of New Haven Conn. bought it and promptly renamed it the L.C. Smith Gun Co. Fulton N.Y. and resumed production Nov 26, 1945, the High graded guns were discontinued except the crown grade 48 were made 1946-1950, emphasis was on the field and ideal grades, these are identified by the letter in front of the S/N, S-1 thru S-56, 800 Nov 26, 1945-June 1950. Also S/N 202968-206909 that was hunter arms in production.
The collapse of the factory floor Jan 16, 1949 led to the closure of the Fulton N.Y. L.C. Smith Factory in June 1950 all machinery ect. Was moved to the Marlin Factory at New Haven Conn. And discontinued until 1968 when Marlin brought back the L.C. Smith, it was a poor shadow of the original L.C. Smith. In the opinion of many it was poorly made and highly over priced and only available in the field grade and died a quick death in 1971, the S/N were 56, 801 to 59, 152 and 100,000 to 100,188 total 2539 guns.
As I stated in the beginning this is a brief but minuscule part of the L.C. Smith story, much much more remains as this only scratches the surface but I hope it will help, as there is so much inaccurate information out there. More data on history, production dates, grades ser #’s. Is available thru me at no charge, this is a free service, as I do not have a computer, no emails, or no faxes as I do not have a fax machine. Mail will be answered only with a stamped self-addressed envelope enclosed. Phone calls within a reasonable time frame (California time 8Am-6PM). As I am a retired person I will answer calls if I’m home, if not you may leave a message, but call back again, as this is a free service and I cannot afford to return calls and postage.
Please see the following web page for L.C. Smith’s for sale and additional services and information.
Thank You.
The L.C. Smith Man,
Walt Schiessl
Addendum to the L.C. Smith Web page by Walt Schiessl
In the years of the double gun makers, many mistakes and errors were
made by lack of foresight and poor judgment, no doubt to the high probability
that this is why they are just memories today. I’m sure there
were many other reasons other than discussed here. The L.C. Smith was the
most well known but the problems were shared by all makers contributing
to the scarcity and rarity of these guns today. The most asked question
today is why are the high and mid graded guns so damn scarce and rare in
the 20 gage 16 gage and 410 gages and so some extent the 12 gage as well?
In high pristine condition these are very seldom seen and extremely rare
and expensive, read on and some of these questions will be answered.
Beginning with the 16 gage, it was considered a competition gage against
foreign imports as during these early years the imports were 16 gage guns
thought by foreign makers to compete with the 12 gage American made guns,
it never happened and the 16 gage never achieved popularity resulting in
extremely low production. The 20 gage guns were inappropriately ridiculed
and labeled as sissy guns for women and kids, sneered at by the shooters
and hunters it was very low priority in advertising, promotion and production.
Other factors one of which was 20 and 16 gage ammo, the munitions makers
deemed these two gages too low in volume to justify production, therefore
they imported foreign made ammo and relabeled it as theirs, foreign made
ammo was also sold independently, generally it was poor quality poor performance
and very expensive and hard to find. Much of it also was black powdered
ammo, this foreign made ammo both black powder and smokeless was a persistent
problem for 20 + 16 gage users throughout the entire era 1890-1950. A related
problem was the stub twist and Damascus barrels guns, with the introduction
of nitro based smokeless powders the Damascus and stub twist barrels were
considered unsafe dangerous obsolete ect. ect ect., panic by many caused
many fine guns to be scrapped, misuse, neglect and attrition reduced these
even more. Oddly enough the low grades of pre 1913-x post 1913 gun with
these barrels still show up commonly (the Damascus barrels were still an
option until 1932) they still have the stigma of dangerous and unsafe and
have very low, low value. Scarcity of 20-gage ammo was a real problem,
WWI, the depression years and WWII years further eroded sales and demand
coupled with the 410 gage introduced in 1925, this was now the kids gage
guns and again caused another drop in sales as the sissy gun stigma was
firmly attached now to the 20 gage guns and coupled with ammo shortages
and extremely pricy ammo even fewer were sold particularly in the high
and mid grade guns. Lack of foresight, financial errors, poor management,
other types of shotguns and many other reasons caused the makers of the
fine double guns to close their doors forever. Hunter arms L.C. Smith was
one, bankruptcy in April 1945, reborn Nov. 26, by the marlin co. died again
in 1949 when the factory floor collapsed and marlin decided not to rebuild,
closed mid 1950. Reborn again in 1968 and died finally in 1971, all led
to the extreme scarcity today of these high and midgrade 20, 16, +410 gage
guns which are in extremely high demand. The pre 1913 20 + 16 gage are
the most sought after as these were the fewest in numbers made in high
and midgrade guns, this also pertains to the post 1913 high and mid grade
to a degree as small amounts more were made in this period 1913-1950 and
the longer years of production. The highest grades of both periods are
beyond rare, the midgrade special ordered guns also of both periods are
rapidly approaching the same status as many were on a close par with these
high grades due to the special order options and features. These were not
the off the shelf midgrades, (above 0 +00 and field) with extractors, double
triggers, standard woods, engravings ect., but options loaded special ordered
guns, due to the many problems of the times very few of these were produced
and are now highly sought after as one of a kind very rare special guns,
most all remain in pristine or very high condition and are rarely seen
and expensive. Hopefully this gives some insight to the scarcity of the
20-16 and 410 and some high graded 12 gages and special ordered 12 gage
guns also.
I’m always happy to answer your L.C. Smith questions,
now I would ask a question, do you wish for me to continue this occasional
data on my web page? If so, let me know, please respond by phone or mail
as I do not have a computer or fax. Thanks again, happy hunting
Best Regards
Walt Schiessl
The L.C. Smith Man
Call me at (714) 956-2869.
Thanks,
The L. C. Smith Man
Walt Schiessl